| Rapt in attention:
Drugs and Sound
Douglas Kahn, February 2001
I'm not sure if I remember correctly. I was eight or nine years
old, when my interest in innovation in the realm of sound and music
was first expressed. It was expressed negatively, because I thought
innovation was soon going to come to an end. I was upstairs in my
bedroom, supposedly going to sleep; instead I was under the sheets
listening to a really cheap (88 cents) transistor radio. It was
shaped like a little red rocket, no doubt designed as a pre-pubescent
prosthetic. I probably wasn't very ripe for radiophonic revelation.
Cocteau's Orpheus makes his way out to the garage to sit in the
car and listen to coded messages from Hades on the radio-this was
the first underground radio. But even if I had been an exceptionally
wise nine-year old, there were no important messages transmitted,
in code or otherwise, from the little red rocket.
What I did hear under the sheets lead me to despair the fate of
music. It was obvious that the notes wouldn't last, they would soon
reach their limit of combinations, and all possible melodies would
thereby be exhausted. New songs would cease to appear and the radio
dial that relied on newness would then fall silent. It was a despair
produced by the general poverty of pop music, channeled through
the narrow focus and redundancy of radio programming, as encountered
by a very unworldly boy growing up in Bremerton, Washington, a military
town whose only redeeming quality was a fire department helmet which
read BFD, the adolescent acronym for Big Fucking Deal. Unfortunately,
I was too much part of the culture to tune in between stations to
listen to the crackle and warbling of the static and heterodyning.
My despair was part of a fatalism shared by my twin brother. A
few years later we each received gift certificates for use at a
record store. He bought several records, the ones you would expect,
the ones he wanted. But he still had money left over so he also
purchased an Andy Williams record, Frank Sinatra, I believe, and
another one along those lines. Why? I asked him. He said that he
couldn't find anymore that he liked, so he bought Andy and the rest
to store until later. He assumed that he would like them when he
grew up. Why not plan ahead?
My early despair about innovation eventually put me, about twenty-five
years later, in an odd position: on the floor of my flat on Page
Street in the Lower Haight, rummaging around looking for something
new to listen to. I grabbed an unmarked audiocassette on the floor.
It was there among my papers, books, clothes, other cassettes, LPs
and other smallish movable articles on the floor. Anything smaller
than a bread box went directly onto the floor. I thought of my room
as a distributed filing cabinet, a kind of conceptual interior decoration
(much like this talk). That was the normal state of things. You
should have seen it after the big earthquake hit, you know, the
World Series earthquake. My room was definitely in an altered state.
Here's the quake as greeted from four different rooms at a bar-code
convention in San Jose.
<play cassette>
During that quake I was with the French art critic Pierre Restany,
who afterwards kept talking about the Big Ass Quake. I thought he
had adopted colorful California language. It was odd, he looked
like a miniature Santa Claus, what was he doing talking like that?
I eventually realized that it was just his accent: big erss-quake.
And this is the point that I want to make. You can enjoy the world
a whole lot more if you're a bit slow on the uptake. Being a bit
slow, a bit deaf, not giving the situation the proper attention,
requires you to pay more attention or, rather, a different type
of attention where you generate a field of possibilities, an excess
much richer and more provocative than any astute perception.
All my bookshelves fell over during that quake, and my room was
literally knee-deep in books and papers and recordings. Normally,
it was only ankle deep. And among this ankle-depth there were a
number of audio cassettes which were unknown to me. My students
at San Francisco State Univ. used to give me things to listen to.
They were a very hip group of students; they had San Francisco itself
to tutor them in the off-hours. One of them had probably given me
this cassette, but forgot to label it. Before listening to it, I
tested a botanical nutrient given to me by a friend with shares
in a lucrative agricultural concern at an undisclosed location in
a fertile county in Northern California. It is customary to roll
small dried portions of this plant in papers that look like thin
white post-it notes. The effects of this plant have been listed
as:
Euphoria. Thought magnification all the way to thought animation;
formal structures seen on their own terms; aesthetic experiences,
personal and sexual experiences, all brought into high relief. Self
and other mix and pull apart. Perspective.
I put on my headphones, rolled over and turned up the volume on
the cassette player. It was quite incredible. The effect was immediate.
I had never heard anything like it. Never.
It was a very tight group of improvisers, so tight they became
fluid. They were exploring a new type of spatiality or, more precisely,
they were exploring a new way of dealing with an old spatiality:
the frontal, planar space of the proscenium stage.
In most music performances, the fact remains repressed that the
musicians and audience have simply squared off. Enough of the sound
bounces off the walls to give the listeners the impression that
they are actually being enveloped by the sound, while in fact they
are in a paralyzed face-to-face relation, lock-stitched there in
a circulating loop of utterance and audition. It is, in other words,
a space configured predominantly by the trajectory of the voice,
in which the utterance happens to be musical and gestural.
Auditoriums are designed to balance the clarity of the utterance
with some sense of envelopment. An early commentator on room acoustics,
a Mr. H. Matthews, said in 1826 that if a room in a church or chapel
wasn't designed very well, Echo would seek her revenge on the preacher,
whose every word would reflect off every inch of the walls. In such
a room, she "mocks him as with ten thousand tongues."
This is a room I would like to see, wallpapered with wagging obnoxious
tongues, like the arms reaching out for Catherine Deneuve in Roman
Polanski's Repulsion. Mocking preachers would be an added bonus.
There are a number of cultures which do not require the stark separation
enforced by the proscenium stage. A number of composers during the
twentieth century scattered musicians or loudspeakers throughout
the auditorium, increased the volume so much that immersion was
impressed upon the skin, and worked with acoustics in such a way
that sound moves around a space as if independent of all sources-in
David Tudor's words, it is as if space itself sings. I once went
to an Alvin Lucier concert with a friend who didn't get it-a slowly
ascending pure sine wave generator on one side of the stage, an
oboe player on the other, interjecting at different points. "What's
the big deal?" he asked. I asked him where the sound was, which
at that time was rotating throughout the auditorium like a slow-motion
tornado. He was transfixed for the rest of the concert. There are
plenty of composers making space sing in amazing ways: LaMonte Young,
Gordon Monohan, Ron Kuivila, many others.
But the group I was listening to on the cassette were doing something
none of these composers have tried; they were taking the planar
characteristics of the conventional performance situation, the plane
set up by the separation, and they were concentrating on that fact
above all else. I still know of no one else doing this.
They moved the sound from the left hand of the stage to the right,
like the sweep of reading a sentence, from one instrumentalist to
the next, about six of them, by means of a hocket, which is usually
used to delineate a melodic line. You might have heard a hocket
in pan pipes in an Andean group, where what sounds like one instrument
playing a melody is in fact a quick alternation between two instrumentalists.
But this hocket was across the breadth of the group, and flowed
through the group in waves from trade-off to trade-off to trade-off.
Also, it was not just in the service of melody but contained all
attributes of music.
Yet, the movement from one musician to the next was more complicated
than a hocket, which functions from the segregation of individual
notes. Not only would each musician morph effortlessly from one
attribute of the music to another, say, from a harmonic to a rhythmic
one, they would start doing it before the other musician had finished.
It's similar to coarticulation in phonetics, where the formation
of one phoneme begins before the preceding one ends, and in that
moment the two are related in a complex way, their identities mix
and pull apart. So these musicians were trading down the line, not
through the segmentation of a hocket, but in the slur of a
diphthong.
Each sweep across the face of the group seemed like a surrogate
for a melodic line, yet contained everything, all the functions
and attributes of the music collapsing into each musician and intricately
carried over with each trade-off. What I'm trying to say is that,
at any one point, the individual musicians were playing a mix; they
were emulating a mix by picking a line through it, a VERY FAT line
that would string together the perfect emblems of an implied totality,
all the while styling it in that short duration from the trade-off
they received on their right to the trade-off they passed it onto
on their left.
The relentless sweeping signaled an almost yogic discipline. The
incredible variation never threatened monotony, and the intensity
was too great to be meditative. The repetitive sweeping set up a
pulse, which at once related to the pace of the trade-offs from
one instrumentalist to the next, and to the independent rhythmical
elements submerged across the sweep from one moment to next. There
were little recursive eddies, mostly at the trade-offs, which would
mark time by almost imperceptibly backing up now and then, and these
too were taken up in the momentum of the pulse. This pulse had little
in common with the those used in some musics-popular and unpopular
alike-where they are little more than a mushy metrical backbeat.
This was more akin to Chinese pulses where the beating of the artery
might be described as the "movement of water sliding over a
crack, a man undoing his belt, or someone wishing to wrap something
up, but lacking the cloth to go all the way around." (these
were mentioned by an incredulous French physician in the 18th century).
There were some things this music didn't do. It didn't dramatically
change direction, or settle in at one spot, or exhibit any real
lateral dynamic. Although streams do not run uphill, they will settle
into pools, plunge over a cliff, fade into other streams or violently
take other streams into themselves, and some can even appear to
gradually run uphill. Multiple lines have could have joined the
sweep and the sweep could have angle out from the proscenium and
added other dimensions. These limitations were good, because it
meant that this group had plenty of other directions to explore.
Having made a huge breakthrough, they had only scratched the surface.
That seems to be the true test of artistic innovation.
I'd just like to mention the ability of the individual musicians.
It was nothing short of remarkable, to keep so many attributes of
the music in mind in the first place, let alone to take them over
so completely and at the proper pace from the musician to their
right. It was truly an example of how self and other could mix and
pull apart. They were obviously musicians of huge technical ability,
and had given themselves over to a collective enterprise of creating
a new type of music, whereas they could have easily directed their
immense talents toward more individual goals.
I wasn't about to argue with the terms of their dedication. I was
ecstatic, so much so I glanced at the clock and about twenty minutes
had disappeared in what had seemed like just a few minutes. Then
I became a bit disconcerted. Although I was learning quite a bit
from my students, I still prided myself on knowing what was going
on and who was doing what. Why hadn't I at least heard of a group
so innovative, so formidable in every respect? At that point in
my life, I lived for moments like these, and spent much of my energy
trying to hasten them. I spent much of my money, often more than
rent, trying to hasten them.
This music was right up there with much earlier never-heard-anything-like-that-before
encounters. But it had been awhile. The reputation of such an amazing
group should have preceded them by miles, and I was certainly in
a position to have heard the first murmurs. Maybe I wasn't in such
a position anymore? Maybe I was totally out of the loop? Maybe the
instincts for this type of predatory behavior had faded?
But that line of reasoning quickly passed and I was back into the
music, that is, until I glanced down at the cassette player on the
floor and saw that the volume was turned all the way up, to 11 on
the Spinal Tap scale. It was very confusing in my tender state but
I soon pieced together that what I had been listening to all along
was not some new supergroup, but a tape of a record that had been
bulk erased.
The record that had been bulk erased was John Coltrane and Pharaoh
Sanders in Seattle. Some people would think that the Coltrane/Sanders
record was itself an exercise in noise: three sides of the double
LP consisted of screaming and wailing. Some ardent fans of Coltrane
will not follow him there. I was so ardent that I had an extra cassette
copy around, one that found its way to my cheap bulk eraser. The
noise that some people heard, the apparent abandon of Coltrane and
Sanders, was actually stuck together by a deep-running logic produced
by a monumental discipline. Perhaps it was this that survived the
destructiveness of bulk erasure? Perhaps only something this strong
could withstand the assault? Then again, I never tested this hypothesis.
Perhaps anything could withstand the pressure. Perhaps everything
contains a germ that will develop into something else, something
new, given a proper break-down and amplification. Not so much composition,
but composting: a breaking down which provides rich soil, where
new life forms emerge and evolve.
Perhaps there are a multitude of new, bulk-erased genres just waiting
to be had. If Konstantin Raudive and other hi-fi mediums could hear
the voices of the dead and other spirits on vacant audiotape recordings,
then the avant-garde could be reanimated by bulk erasure. The germ
of new musics and new sound arts would be developed and matured
into new art forms, full-fledged practices, and then bulk-erased
again. It could go on forever. Weren't the good ol' days of the
avant-garde propelled by a chain of incomplete erasures?
It wasn't the marijuana talking. Perhaps it was. Perhaps it added
a certain type of amplification, to 12, that has nothing to do with
loudness. But it may have more to do with some other type of gain.
In fact, other effects listed are:
More humor and wit, attention to ideas and innuendo, in the conversation.
Or if not, at least rapt attention while you listen. Or, if not,
rapt attention for the brief moments you are attentive. Or, if not,
at least rapturous inattention.
The intensity or gain is due to the fact that marijuana makes you
slow on the uptake: the effect of rapturous inattention. Jazz musicians
have historically commented on how marijuana gets in the way of
timing, but no doubt this pertains to a certain type of timing in
a certain type of jazz. I've seen Cecil Taylor and his group emerge
onto stage from the back room in a monstrous cloud of marijuana
smoke and do just fine. In my episode on the floor of my flat on
Page Street, if I had had my wits about me, I would have noticed
the fact that something was wrong from the very beginning, and never
have stumbled into the experience. I would have never been so distracted
as to turn the volume all the way to the top in order to hear things
I had never heard before or since. What I'm saying is that it's
good to be a bit stupid.
Much has been written and chronicled about art and attention, and
the attentive states of different types of drugs, as a whole they
pay very little attention to hearing and sound. Probably more frequent
are mentions of instances of hallucination where large scale actions
are entirely silent! Now that's really bizarre.
This can be explained in various ways.
1. nothing out of the ordinary happened in terms of the sound
2. people couldn't tell the difference if it was happening
3. they wouldn't have the ability to describe it if they could tell
the difference
4. the proper words to describe it don't exist even if they had
the ability
5. even if one could describe brilliantly, what then? what sense
would be made of it?
This, you will have noticed, would plague all writing on sound
and music, not just reports from the drugged-up front, or other
encounters of privatized sound. You can certainly see it operating
in music journalism, and that's why there is such an epidemic of
hip journalism. This glibness is merely a product of denial, and
it is immediately counterproductive. I'm not just saying that it
is written with a sense of superiority, or at least privileged arbitration,
which it is, but the lack of humility is a sign of not allowing
stupidity to the space work its magic.
Here's Aldous Huxley in the Doors of Perception recounting his
investigation of mescaline: "Listening to the recordings of
my conversation under the influence of the drug, I cannot discover
that I was then any stupider than I am at ordinary times."
He misses the point, probably because he was thinking about doors
to "other realities" as one would think of different rooms
in the manor. If he had wanted to have a truly fruitful experience-he
should have been more stupider than normal; then he would have to
had worked harder to figure out what's going on. If you are at the
cusp of being ostracized from this reality, you will do a double
day to either conform as best you can, or work up some pretty good
reasons for your exile. In that process, you generate a wider range
of readings or, rather, misreadings. You necessarily give yourself
more options because you're really too stupid to close them down
with a decision. And with all those options, then you can do what
We in the West do Best: shop. This is our pragmatic plenitude. But
instead of racing down the aisles or thumbing the bins of mindless
consumption, you'll be shopping for the products of your own stupidity,
the one you have worked so hard to overcome.
What this means is that natural talent, natural intelligence: they're
huge handicaps to doing anything interesting. Any philosophy of
education that does not have a notion of productive confusion at
its very core is rationalistic and doomed to boredom. The naturally
talented and the naturally intelligent are further handicapped by
their ability to make exceedingly persuasive excuses. The depth
of their intuition is at the root of their power of unwitting self
deprecation and demobilization.
So I think this is what many drugs do. They dumb you down and provide
a sense of obligatory curiosity. You took this, you smoked that....what
happens now? What profound mystical motivation moved René
Daumal to try carbon tetrachloride? "To see what would happen"
When you repeat it too much, curiosity fades, and then it becomes
the same old same old. As they say with drugs: when you get the
message, hang up.
Then again, there are drugs which may override any lack of curiosity
and impose unique auditory experiences. I'm thinking specifically
of an encounter I had with nitrous oxide (the dentist's "laughing
gas"). What happened was that the sound of the total environment
congealed into rope which went in one ear and out the other, like
mental floss, in a wave-like motion. Visually, the entire surrounding
world was squeezed down into a pronounced myopia. Not much was left.
In contrast to this depleted state of tunnel-vision, the tunnel-audition
was quite remarkable. Closing down produced an intensification,
where a multiplicitous, agglomerate sound world was channeled transparently
through a warbling tube through the head, in one ear and out the
other, like some pneumatic transport system in a painting by William
Blake. "Intracraniality" is a "problem" in virtual
audio systems; it should be an asset.
People in dentists' chairs experienced this type of listening only
momentarily as they passed into oblivion. Allen Ginsberg has a poem
called "Laughing Gas" where he describes the sound he
left behind.
the odd vibration of
the same old universe
the nasal whine of the dentist's drill
singing against the nostalgic
piano Muzak in the wall
insistent, familiar, penetrating
the teeth, where've I heard that
asshole jazz before?
The nitrous oxide sends him into a snowballing parade that gathers
up the likes of Christ, any number of Buddahs and cartoon characters,
including "Woody the Woodpecker's hindoo maniac laughter in
the skull." You know the sound, finishing up like a harassing
jackhammer (if the skull is a poorly designed room, then Woody will
mock you with 10,000 beaks). He thought that laughing gas transported
him to death's door, and that the reason that sound played such
a prominent role was because hearing is the last remaining sense
to go before death. This is a common conviction although it is unclear
how it might be substantiated. The biggest regret of Luis Buñuel
about the deafness of his final years was that he would not have
music to usher him into death. This may have something to do with
the celestial music people are said to hear at the moment of death,
angels with horns sounding like Kenny G., while the living around
the death bed hear only the death rattle of sphincters being relaxed
throughout the body. That's why people cry and wail at deathbeds:
to mask the sound of sphincters. Many of you would feel the same
way about Kenny G. May I suggest you go to one of his concerts and
cry inconsolably throughout the whole thing.
The fact of the matter is more figurative. When you are bedside
as someone very close to you dies, it is the collapse of something
that has always been so manifest into something forever ephemeral.
The inverse of that- the substantiality of each passing moment-which
can certainly occur while listening to music, is nevertheless trivial
when compared to a dying. This, at the scene of dying, is which
is where I in my capacity of barroom philosopher think Western religion,
with its fear of death, probably originated. It's pretty specious,
therefore, when people start associating music per se and religion,
or spirituality. Working up the endorphins with a good trance-n-dance
is another story altogether.
But Ginsberg was not dying, he was merely going in and out of consciousness,
aided by his dentist who was playing along. What Ginsberg heard
was at the doorstep of death, or at least a liminal state of existence
with all its warbling and marbling of illusion and reality. He transcribed
these episodes as a form of poetic research. Ginsberg was into transcription
generally. He transcribed his dreams, his daily life, often using
a tape recorder. My good friend Chris Schiff saw him gathering his
mail in a post office in Boulder, Colorado; all the while Ginsberg
saw Chris seeing him and murmuring ALL THIS CRAZY POST OFFICE SCENE
into his portable cassette recorder.
There's a way to regulate the nitrous oxide with air to control
the dose. And that's what the faculty member at the hippie college
I was attending had done. The college, The Evergreen State College,
was new so they were throwing a big party. It was being christened,
but instead of champagne, this guy had a box of balloons and a nitrous
oxide tank in his office. Students filed into his office to fill
up these balloons, go off somewhere and inhale. People were used
to inhaling balloons for comic effects, the way helium would make
you sound like Donald the Duck and Woody the Woodpecker. Deflating
one of these balloons of laughing gas would render you motionless
for about 20 or 30 seconds, as all the surround sounds of the world
wormed their way in one ear out the other. A couple dozen people
were filing through his office, wandering off, inhaling, for 20
to 30 seconds they would stand petrified, then they would inexplicably
move along. The plaza of the school had people standing isolated
here and there, facing different directions. It looked like a scene
out of Last Year at Marienbad, just add the topiary.
The college was being officially inaugurated, so the Governor of
Washington State, Dan Evans, was there. I stood behind him in the
lunch line, listening to him converse with his companions, and then
I emptied a balloon. The Governor's chitchat congealed with all
the other sounds of the lunch line-you can imagine what they would
be-and then pulse through my head in a gentle whiplash.
Don't get me wrong. This was not some wolf-child version of Ommagio
a Joyce, Luciano Berio noodling with Cathy Berberian's voice. There
was a long line of tables with a spread of all different types of
food, Ommagio a Joyce would merely equate to one dish, a nice one,
say, the gazpacho. The auditory smorgasbord was made up of a meandering
trail of tables, each with its courses, each course with its dishes,
each dish with its ingredients, with all the people on either side,
all their monologues and interactions and innuendoes, and all the
surround sounds, all twisted up with the Governor in a giant taffy
pull. So much unity in diversity, maybe vice versa, you are what
you eat: it was democracy in action. All political speech should
be heard this way.
Before trying this at home, a friend of mine told me how, when
he was in Vietnam, his squad was dismantling a field hospital and
took the occasion to attach gas masks to a few tanks of laughing
gas. Pure gas will simply suffocate you. The gas they were inhaling
was regulated but improperly regulated, and the amount they inhaled
was probably more akin to a weather balloon. He thought he was going
to die or, worse, be trapped in mania forever. Laughter turned around
to a horrid mocking of base existential distress.
The latter was a feeling I had once when something I ingested was
laced with something else. Whatever either of them were, they produced
temporary aphasia, or at least that's what I later surmised after
having run across some medical literature on experiments which sounded
remarkably similar to my experience. Although I blacked out, I had
nevertheless been talking and carrying on for about three hours.
Coming to with my usual self I found myself talking to my girlfriend.
I had known her for years yet I still could not understand a word
she was saying. This instantly filled me with a paralyzing fear.
She was talking but the only things I could hear were what could
be called little passages in syntax, tiny leaps of logic. My horror
relaxed a bit with each passage, because I felt that language was
revealing itself to me. Any hope vanished when I recognized that
one of these little passages in syntax was, in fact, a question.
The fear increased so much, that I had an image of a mainspring
which was so tight it had become a solid metal puck. Not language
I had no response. I eventually tried to respond but could only
muster up two classes of words: hard-wired cuss words, such as when
you burn your finger and your instant reflex is "shit!",
and words signaling grand cohesion, cosmological glue: Mother is
a favorite among aphasics (I left my mother out of it), although
other words can get pretty peculiar. The effect has been described
as:
Dark night of the soul with the light turned on, the harsh glare
revealing impenetrable surfaces and unlivable spaces; panicked appeals
to specious cosmologies conflated with knee-crawling, blithering
nonsense; legitimate fears of permanent institutionalization with
regular visits from gloating enemies, disciplining field trips to
the glue factory.
The drug wiped out a good part of over two years of memory. It
took months to reconstitute. What little social grace I had previously
vanished into a blank chicken stare. This is the caveat. Drugs only
work when they make you a bit stupid. The experience ultimately
proved to be beneficial. As they say-if it doesn't kill you it will
make you stronger-but this is just another appeal to a specious
cosmology, less panicked, better philosophical pedigree, just as
specious.
I prefer sounds in dreams. They're safer. My favorite one took
place on a hill facing a forest of fir trees on another hill. These
were the firs of Washington State, not the gums surrounding me in
Australia. The whole forest was emanating sound. Vibrations were
being transmitting separately from each needle on each branch on
each tree, millions of separate transmissions. I perceived each
transmission independently, directly and simultaneously, not in
my ears, but into each cell of my body. Each needle in the forest
of firs transmitting directly to a specific cell in my body. In
the dream the perception filled me with light. It was a beautiful
feeling, similar to being pervaded by love, with the sun streaming
in from every angle. The only thing I can relate it to was the first
night my new-born daughter was home. While going in and out of sleep
with her in the room, I heard the sounds she made that night not
in my ears, but right where the spine disappears into the skull.
It was straight out of Michael McClure's meat science.
Much of my talk here has been about hearing things in an altered
state and by "altered state" I don't mean Florida (it's
not true that Elian's absentee ballot could have swayed the results).
The topic belongs to the larger topic of privatized listening among
exceptional psychological states- drugs, dreams, mysticism, ritual,
psychological and neurological states (e.g., among synaesthetes),
psychopathological states, and combinations thereof. They all amount
to things heard by one person alone. They cannot be dismissed easily
because millions of people hear thing heard by one person alone.
Many of these things disobey acoustical, semiotic and cultural laws,
or they lobby to have them overturned. I am hoping that the qualities
of privatized listening might reach further than one suspects. Perhaps
while others are hearing the same-old same-old, it is possible to
mishear it. Kenny G. and death rattle mix and pull apart. A halting,
incomplete senility imposed upon the culture. Bulk erasing. Who
knows?
Sy, my three year-old son, recently informed me that he had one
brain in his left ear, and 31 brains in his right ear, which were
placed there by a robot who walked like a duck with both hands on
his knees. He put his hands on his knees because he didn't have
any knees, so he had to walk like that. The robot puts brains in
people's ears because he ate too much ice cream, the size of a house,
and chased it with just a little bit of wine. It would be good to
hear with 31 brains in one ear and one in the other, for awhile
at least, but there I'm a little slow on the uptake on that one.
It's going to take some time.
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